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Msg ID: 2707770 Trump tax cuts, overveiw +2/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/17/2021 12:48:15 PM


https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/trump-tax-cuts-results-full-review/

Just a overview of the outcome of Trumps tax cuts.  These figure have been produced from government agencies, so yes you can be assured they are reasonably correct.  Not data that has been twisted and turned bu some socialist news reporter.



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Msg ID: 2707831 "Everybody Gets A Tax Cut" Another Big Lie, My Taxes Went Up... +2/-0     
Author:Jett
10/17/2021 3:13:54 PM

Reply to: 2707770

Your link has no credibility, it starts out "GOP", in other words this is something from trumplicans. 

I don't dispute that the tax and regulation cuts helped business, albeit at the expense of the deficit and our environment. 

I think we need to find the "Sweet Spot", keep taxes as low as we can but businesses need to pay their fair share. This is part of the problem:







  



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Msg ID: 2707841 FAIR SHARE, what a bunch of BS +1/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/17/2021 4:01:36 PM

Reply to: 2707831

High-income Americans already pay the majority of taxes, and the US Tax system is highly progressive even when compared to other countries.  The top 20% already pay over 60% of taxes.

But what really is fair?  Treating People Equality!!

what is fair about a tax system that taxes people differently,  some pay a lot while others get money back they did not pay in.  That is far form being fair.  Fair would be something like.  

How much did you make?  

Times it by 5%,.

Send that in. No deductions, just pay the same % as everybody else!  THAT WOULD BE FAIR!

your list of Corporations paying zero tax is BS.

Everything they do and do not pay is 100% legal!  All benefit from deductions your government allows them to take.  If they pay zero income tax it is because so taxlaw allows it and in some cases if they dinotget some deductio they would be bankrupt.  They do pay lots of money in other kinds of taxes.

 

 



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Msg ID: 2707843 I didn't say it was illegal, I said it's wrong... +2/-0     
Author:Jett
10/17/2021 4:12:46 PM

Reply to: 2707841

There's a Big difference Old Dude. I could support a flat tax, everyone pays a flat percentage with no deductions. I don't think 5% will get the job done, but maybe 20% between state, federal, and social/medical. That goes for business as well, across the board no exceptions except people below the poverty line. 

 

 



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Msg ID: 2707844 last I heard an estimate, a federal flat tax would have to be 22% +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/17/2021 4:18:27 PM

Reply to: 2707843
Even then tax loopholes would enrich those able to afford them.


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Msg ID: 2707847 Government said 16%, so It could be much less than that! (NT) +1/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/17/2021 4:29:40 PM

Reply to: 2707844


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Msg ID: 2707848 Government said 16%, so It could be much less than that! +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/17/2021 4:41:31 PM

Reply to: 2707847
cite that number. that's hardly more than ssi


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Msg ID: 2707853 Government said 16%, so It could be much less than that! +1/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/17/2021 4:58:57 PM

Reply to: 2707848

16.48% is the effective tax rate for all income tax payers!  



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Msg ID: 2707896 When did the government EVER do anything under budget? +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/17/2021 11:54:00 PM

Reply to: 2707848
And you claim to be conservative....


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Msg ID: 2707852 Crow one more post, one more example of stupidity  +2/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/17/2021 4:56:42 PM

Reply to: 2707844

What! tax loopholes are something to buy.  And only the rich can afford them, they must not be for sale at WalMart!  We're do we purchase our tax loopholes?

Do you understand how and why our government works, I don't think so.

We already know you have NO idea how the economy works,  now you think rich people can afford tax loopholes!

Let me explain to you that every tax loophole (as you call them) are goverments ways of trying to control people's behavior.  Every deductions serves a idea to control our actions and investments, it provides goverment with the power to produce winners and losers.  If you were a capitalist you would know they produce crony capitalism, but you are a Marxist so you don't understand.

useful idiot 



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Msg ID: 2707958 Crow one more post, one more example of stupidity  +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 12:15:00 PM

Reply to: 2707852

Despite my certainty that you're being intentionally obtuse:

Set up a charitable foundation, let's say the Trump Foundation. Contribute and write off your charitable contribution. Then take money out of the foundation for your own use.

Before all that, you need a tax accountant and a tax lawyer to advise you how, what and where you set up your charitable foundation and how, what and where you can use it for your own benefit. If nobody reports you or your foundation's records are opaque when audited, you'e home free.

Good tax accountants and tax lawyers aren't cheap. How do you think George Soros, Elon Musk, Carl Icahn and Michael Bloomberg do it? Good advice, careful structuring and discipline. Those aren't personal qualities of Donald Trump... well the careful structuring is admittedly something he does. But he never, ever takes advice- he considers himself the smartest guy in the room and he may be, but he doesn't know everything. And he has proven that he has no self-discipline, he wouldn't be a serial sexual attacker/rapist were that so.

I'm old enough to remember Dick Eberhardt's congressional service. He boasted that he had never written a tax bill to benefit any particular person. As an example of such bills, he cited a tax law that was written to benefit the single person coroporation that own a sailing yacht of such and such characteristics.



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Msg ID: 2707908 Why you don't understand what you post +2/-0     
Author:bladeslap
10/18/2021 7:04:50 AM

Reply to: 2707770

The "GOP House ways and means committee" as usual posts completely misleading data ... I'll point out one major thing

They attribute the tax cuts to "Adding more jobs"

Obama added more jobs in the last 4 years than Trump added in his 4 years...even if you don't consider the pandemic. Consider the last 2 years vs trump's 2 years. Even with massive stimulus (aka tax cuts), Trump still couldn't keep up with the job Growth Obama had.

This the truth Old Guy dos not want to acknowledge.

He doesn't want to acknowledge the massive debt that Trump made...Trump borrowed to the hilt just like he did in his businesses, most of which he bankrupted. Trump has a history of overleveraging and poor fiscal responsibility.

That's what he did with the U.S.

Old guy just doesnt undetstand how economics and money work.



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Msg ID: 2707972 Did the 2017 tax cut—the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act—pay for itself? +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 3:09:17 PM

Reply to: 2707770

When you're selling something, like a new 1972 Ford Pinto, you try turn negative aspects into positive aspects- the Pinto was heavy compared to Japanese imports, so- it had more road hugging weight!

Or, you tell the customer that the software is full of bugs: those are 'features'.

Or you make a swag as high as possible, like the 'Total Real Revenues' graph below. That self generated self justifying point closes your argument, right?

 Trump's tax cut got a lot of noise but no real effect for the average taxpayer. "Corporations are people too" and they did indeed see benefits.... which of course they passed on, right? Nope.

Did the 2017 tax cut—the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act—pay for itself?

House Majority Leader Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) speaks at news conference announcing the passage of the "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act" at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, U.S., November 16, 2017. REUTERS/Aaron P. Bernstein

The Vitals

Before and after passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA), several prominent conservatives, including Republicans in the House and Senate, former Reagan economist Art Laffer, and members of the Trump administration, claimed that the act would either increase revenues or at least pay for itself. In principle, a tax cut could “pay for itself” if it spurred substantial economic growth—if tax revenues rose from the combination of higher wages and hours worked, greater investment returns, and larger corporate profits. The TCJA, however, is not that tax cut.

  •  

    The actual amount of tax revenue collected in FY2018 was significantly lower than the CBO’s projection made in January 2017—before the tax cut was signed into law.
  •  

    Given that the economy grew in 2018, and in the absence of another policy that could have caused a large revenue loss, the data imply that the 2017 tax cut substantially reduced revenues.
  •  

    The 2017 tax cut reduced the top corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 21 percent—a 40 percent reduction. It also reduced income taxes for most Americans.
 

A Closer Look

Did the TCJA spur enough growth to maintain federal revenue levels?

While some TCJA supporters observe that nominal revenues were higher in fiscal year 2018 (which began Oct. 1, 2017) than in FY2017, that comparison does not address the question of the TCJA’s effects. Nominal revenues rise because of inflation and economic growth. Adjusted for inflation, total revenues fell from FY2017 to FY2018 (Figure 1). Adjusted for the size of the economy, they fell even more.

The right question: What would revenues have been without the TCJA?

The most appropriate test of the revenue impact of the TCJA is to compare actual revenues in FY2018 with predicted revenues in FY2018 assuming Congress had not passed the legislation. In fact, the actual amount of revenue collected in FY2018 was significantly lower than the Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) projection of FY2018 revenue made in January 2017—before the tax cuts were signed into law in December 2017. The shortfall was $275 billion, or 7.6% of revenues that were expected before the tax cuts took place. Given that the economy grew, and in the absence of another policy that could have caused a large revenue loss, the data imply that the TCJA substantially reduced revenues (Figure 1).

VoterVitals_Gale_TaxCuts_Figure1

What does the composition of the revenue shortfalls tell us about the effect of the TCJA?

The TCJA’s changes mostly affected the corporate and individual income taxes (Figure 2). The act reduced the top corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%—a 40% reduction. Actual corporate income tax revenue in FY2018 was $135 billion lower than CBO’s projection from 2017—almost exactly a 40% decline. The most recent CBO projections estimate further decreases in corporate tax revenue. The TCJA also reduced income taxes for most Americans, which led to a decline in revenues relative to prior projections. For individual income taxes, actual collections in FY2018 were $97 billion, or 5.4%, below pre-TCJA projections.

These effects are accentuated if one looks at taxes as a share of GDP (Table 1). In 2017, before the tax cuts were considered, the CBO estimated that total revenues would be 18.1% of GDP in FY2018. With the TCJA, revenues were only 16.4% of GDP. Similar patterns hold for individual income taxes and (in more extreme form) for corporate income taxes. Due to data limitations, the revenue numbers in Table 1 are on a fiscal year (October 2017–September 2018) basis. As a result, 2018 data include the three months prior to the act’s enactment. If the values were instead on a calendar year basis so that 2018 only included post-TCJA revenues, the revenue declines would be even larger.

VoterVitals_Gale_TaxCuts_Table

Are the differences between projected and actual revenues really caused by the TCJA?

These shortfalls can’t be attributed to errors in the CBO’s pre-TCJA forecast. To illustrate this, it makes sense to look at projected and actual payroll tax revenues, because the TCJA did not directly affect payroll taxes. In fact, payroll taxes fell only slightly—1.7%—from pre-TCJA projected values (Figure 2). This provides baseline credibility that reinforces the declines in other revenues.

VoterVitals_Gale_TaxCuts_Figure2

Were the TCJA’s revenue effects anticipated?

None of these findings should be surprising. Almost every major analysis of the legislation correctly predicted that revenues would fall in 2018 relative to a scenario without the tax cuts, with sources ranging from government entities such as the CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation, to non-governmental think tanks such as the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center and the Tax Foundation, academic researchers in studies by Robert Barro and Jason Furman, and in analyses using the Penn-Wharton Budget Model.

Could the revenue shortfalls be a temporary result of sudden policy change?

For those who might argue to “wait and see” what has happened in 2019, the findings from the studies cited above offer little hope. On average, these models estimated that economic growth effects (the “dynamic effects”) will only offset about a quarter of the 10-year revenue loss associated with the TCJA. Excluding the Tax Foundation, which is an outlier in these estimates, drops the average offset to less than 20%.

So did the TCJA pay for itself?

The TCJA did not pay for itself, nor is it likely to do so in the future. There are many debates to have about the TCJA, but whether it raised or reduced revenues in 2018 should not be one of them.

I thank Grace Enda and Claire Haldeman for outstanding research assistance.



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Msg ID: 2707977 Your post again shows how little you nderstand +1/-3     
Author:Old Guy
10/18/2021 3:39:51 PM

Reply to: 2707972

Your post show results after just one year of the tax cuts, not much happens that fast in our economy.  It takes time for investments to take hold.  The tax cuts produced an explosion in investments and as time goes by the benefits will Materialize. Trump tax cuts have federal revenues at a all-time high.  Trump tax cuts are still in place and the economy growth still functioning under Trumps programs.  Also record personal income growth Is the highest in 20 years.  

useful idiot 



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Msg ID: 2707988 Okay- some estimates of the federal deficits +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 4:42:58 PM

Reply to: 2707977
2017 $666 billion 2018 $780 billion 2019 $984 billion 2020 $3.31 trillion Notice the pattern- ever increasing deficits. Nothing like Trump's campaign promise to payoff the national debt in 8 years... Read a Trump interview today from 2005(?) in which he admits that he borrows a lot in his businesses.... And in his administration, obviously.


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Msg ID: 2707989 Your post again shows how little you nderstand +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 4:48:04 PM

Reply to: 2707977

LOVE this statement::

takes time for investments to take hold.  The tax cuts produced an explosion in investments and as time goes by 

I remember making a similar statement after 2017's expansion, that it wasn't Trumo's doing, the economy has an inertia and takes time to show effects. Like the 2020 recession was a result of all of Trump's administration policies.



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Msg ID: 2707997 Total bull shit +1/-2     
Author:Old Guy
10/18/2021 6:38:02 PM

Reply to: 2707989

What expansion are you talking about, the expansion of the economy from Trumps policies?  We know that it was not from Obama's policies, because he got NO bills passed in his last 4 years, in his final years he made NO progress on anything!

Trump was not responsible for any recession, if anything is true, it is the CDC responsible for the allowing and paying for the gain-of-function research, in the first place.  Trump did not approve that, Obama did.

useful idiot 



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Msg ID: 2708000 Feds lift gain-of-function research pause, offer guidance Dec 19, 2017 +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 7:18:53 PM

Reply to: 2707997

Feds lift gain-of-function research pause, offer guidance

 Dec 19, 2017

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) today lifted a 3-year moratorium on funding gain-of-function (GOF) research on potential pandemic viruses such as avian flu, SARS, and MERS, opening the door for certain types of research to resume.

The action coincides with today's release of a US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) framework for guiding funding decisions about proposed research involving pathogens that have enhanced potential for creating pandemics.

Experts involved in the discussions welcomed the development, but some said the new framework still leaves key unanswered questions, such as how to responsibly report findings from the funded lab work in medical journals. Meanwhile, in research labs, some scientists plan to resume experiments and are relieved the pause has ended. Both groups are eager to see how the new review process works in real life.

In a statement today, NIH Director Francis Collins, MD, PhD, said "We have a responsibility to ensure that research with infectious agents is conducted responsibly, and that we consider the potential biosafety and biosecurity risks associated with such research." He added that he is confident that the review process spelled out in the new framework "will help to facilitate the safe, secure, and responsible conduct of this type of research in a manner that maximizes the benefits to public health."

Scientists gear up to resume studies

Research projects that were paused under the moratorium will now be reviewed based on the new framework, and the ones that clear the process will be able to proceed with appropriate risk mitigation measures in place.

Yoshihiro Kawaoka, DVM, PhD, who heads a virology research group at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said his team will propose experiments they couldn't do during the funding pause. He was lead author of one of the two controversial H5N1 avian flu papers published in 2012 that brought the GOF controversy to a head.

"Specifically, we have been identifying amino acid changes that enhance the polymerase function of avian influenza viruses in mammalian cells to understand the molecular mechanism of avian-to-human transmission in a system not involving live virus," Kawaoka said. "We will now propose testing the effect of those amino acid changes on virus replication."

GOF research involves studies that enhance the pathogenicity, transmissibility, or host range of a pathogen to better understand the threat. However, GOF studies have sparked "dual-use" concerns that center around the threat of accidental lab release or the pathogens becoming bioterror threats if they fall into the wrong hands.

Framework follows advisors' daunting task

In light of controversial research on H5N1 viruses in 2012, the Obama administration in 2014 announced a pause of federally funded GOF research and asked a government advisory group to reevaluate federal GOF funding policies and put together recommendations to help officials make their decisions.

The expert group, called the National Science Advisory Board for Biosecurity (NSABB), commissioned a 1,000-page risk-benefit assessment to help them make their final guidance, which they finalized in June 2016, along with an ethics white paper. As part of the process, the NSABB held two National Academies symposia on GOF issues.

Collins, in his statement today, thanked and praised the NSABB and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine for their work on the issues. "The work of these committees was instrumental in guiding the United States Government in its job of creating rigorous policy that allows vital research to move forward."

Tight framework centers on 8 criteria

The framework, condensed into a 6-page document, spells out a multidisciplinary review process that involved the funding agency and a department-level review group that considers the merits and possible research benefits and the potential to create, transfer, or use an enhanced potential pandemic pathogen (PPP). In January in the final days of the Obama administration, the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) released guidance the departments can use to follow through with the reviews.

There are eight criteria in the framework for guiding HHS funding decisions, which stipulate, for example, that the research has been evaluated by an independent expert review as scientifically sound, that the potential risks and benefits are justified, that there are no other equally effective but less risky options for answering the research question, and that the research team and facility have the capacity to do the work safety and securely and to respond rapidly if there are any accidents, protocol lapses, or security breaches.

Regarding issues surrounding publication, the criterion says that the research results are expected to be responsibly communicated, based on applicable laws, regulations, and policies, along with terms and conditions of funding.

Also, the framework stipulates that the work will be done with the support of funding mechanisms that allow appropriate risk management and ongoing institution and federal oversight of the research. And finally, the criteria state that the research must be ethically justifiable.

Steps forward, but unanswered questions

Marc Lipsitch, PhD, professor of epidemiology and director of the Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, has been deeply involved in the GOF discussions and has argued for a much more rigorous approach for evaluating the experiments. He has pushed for experts to consider safer ways to assess potential pandemic virus threats and for an international approach to tackling the issues.

"My overall take is that this is a small step forward," he said, adding that it includes a department-level review of the most concerning types of research, which have been defined appropriately after extensive time and debate. "The question is how such reviews will play out in practice."

However, Lipsitch said one problem is that the guidance specifies that research groups that propose work with enhanced pathogens will need to convince reviewers that there is no feasible, equally effective alternative way of addressing the scientific question with a less risky approach.

"If this means no alternative to answer with certainty the question of whether a specific strain that occurs in nature can very easily evolve to acquire a ferret-transmissible phenotype, then this criterion will always be satisfied," he said. "This is a scientific question that can uniquely be answered with dangerous experiments, and cannot be answered safely. But it is not a very useful one, because every strain in nature is different."

Michael Osterholm, PhD, MPH, who was a member of the NSABB during the controversy over the H5N1 papers, said he believes the GOF work can be done safely, but he doesn't agree that scientists doing the federally funded work should be unfettered.

Osterholm said his main concern regards the public health implications of the publicly available details about how the work is communicated, which the new framework doesn't spell out. "How we detail that information needs to be considered," such as more finely specifying when findings are open to the general public, when they're disseminated on a "need to know" basis, and when the information is classified.

"Until we have that part solved, I'm concerned about the work being done," he said.

Osterholm, director of the University of Minnesota's Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, which publishes CIDRAP News, added that some research is needed to answer key questions, such as what it would take for Ebola to become a respiratory virus, findings that would have implications for preparedness. "If it were the case, I don't want the public to have a blueprint on how to do it," he said.

Tom Inglesby, MD, director and chief executive officer at the Center for Health Security at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, has also been deeply involved in discussions about issues related to the research pause. He said the requirements for the multidisciplinary, department-level pre-funding review and the involvement of the White House OSTP are excellent.

He added that the emphasis on enhanced potential pandemic pathogens is correct and focuses the framework on where it should be, such as on harmful consequences, immunity disruption, conferred resistance, and reconstructed extinct pathogens. "Though for the policy to be successful it needs to, at a minimum, be able to oversee the creation of novel strains that may be highly transmissible and highly virulent and should probably focus on that most intently to start."

A potentially serious weakness of the new framework is that surveillance activities involving potential pandemic pathogens (PPPs), including sampling and sequencing, aren't considered to be enhanced PPPs and would be exempt from reviews, Inglesby said, adding that surveillance as a rationale doesn't change potential risks of novel PPP strains. "There are serious debates about whether specific enhanced PPP projects are materially useful to on-the-ground surveillance programs," he said.

Inglesby's other concerns revolve around the lack of hard details of how the experiment reviews will work, such as the process for weighing the risks and benefits and the criteria for judging if researchers and institutions have the capacity to do the work safely. "I would have liked to see if this framework was working as intended before the moratorium was ended," he said, suggesting that agencies funding the work publish their experiences using the new framework to show how it functions.

Paul Duprex, PhD, professor of microbiology at Boston University School of Medicine and its National Emerging Infectious Diseases Laboratories, is among the lab scientists who have watched the discussions play out against the backdrop of unknowns about whether stalled experiments might have moved the field forward, colleagues' lab work being in limbo, and much time spent justifying the work.

"So on a personal level I'm really pleased these NIH funded scientists get some clarity," he said, noting that today's framework release and lifting of the research funding pause are signs of progress.

Regarding how the framework will play out for reviewers and researchers, the proof will be in the Christmas pudding, Duprex said, adding that he hopes the new framework produces a lean, functional, and responsive process rather than one that's heavily bureaucratic.

>


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Msg ID: 2708023 Feds lift gain-of-function research pause, offer guidance Dec 19, 2017 +2/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/18/2021 10:29:08 PM

Reply to: 2708000

You see that the Trump administration lifted the ban on funding, yes? Obama had shut it down.

You reveal Trumpist as dishonest and anti-science.



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