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Msg ID: 2708212 Let’s go Brandon +2/-4     
Author:Old Guy
10/20/2021 12:17:13 PM

I don't normally brag about going to expensive places, but I just left the gas station!



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Msg ID: 2708215 Was your appointment on time? I missed mine last week.... (NT) +2/-1     
Author:TheCrow
10/20/2021 1:02:16 PM

Reply to: 2708212


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Msg ID: 2708446 Go Electric, like I did, and you'll never have to fill up w gas again (NT) +2/-0     
Author:bladeslap
10/22/2021 3:26:40 PM

Reply to: 2708212


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Msg ID: 2708461 Go Electric, like I did, and you'll never have to fill up w gas again +1/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/22/2021 4:35:11 PM

Reply to: 2708446

Batteries have an ever dimishing charging capacity. Replacing a Tesla battery is $5000, a lot of gas. 

And, at my present location, an electric car is a wash, carbon emissions-wise:


Plant Scherer, the largest co2 emitter and coal burning electric generation plant in America. There is at least one other, smaller plant sharing the local electrical generation load with hydro.



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Msg ID: 2708463 Go Electric, like I did, and you'll never have to fill up w gas again +1/-0     
Author:TheCrow
10/22/2021 4:38:02 PM

Reply to: 2708446

Eventually, electric cars and batteries will be an all-around better choice, but....

Getty Images
 
Industryweek 32752 Lithium Mineral 1620

Lithium Batteries' Dirty Secret: Manufacturing Them Leaves Massive Carbon Footprint

Oct. 16, 2018
Once in operation, electric cars certainly reduce your carbon footprint, but making the lithium-ion batteries could emit 74% more CO2 than for conventional cars.
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by Niclas Rolander, Jesper Starn and Elisabeth Behrmann

Beneath the hoods of millions of the clean electric cars rolling onto the world's roads in the next few years will be a dirty battery.

Every major carmaker has plans for electric vehicles to cut greenhouse gas emissions, yet their manufacturers are, by and large, making lithium-ion batteries in places with some of the most polluting grids in the world.

By 2021, capacity will exist to build batteries for more than 10 million cars running on 60 kilowatt-hour packs, according to data of Bloomberg NEF. Most supply will come from places like China, Thailand, Germany and Poland that rely on non-renewable sources like coal for electricity.

 

"We're facing a bow wave of additional CO2 emissions," said Andreas Radics, a managing partner at Munich-based automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors, which argues that for now, drivers in Germany or Poland may still be better off with an efficient diesel engine.

The findings, among the more bearish ones around, show that while electric cars are emission-free on the road, they still discharge a lot of the carbon-dioxide that conventional cars do.

Just to build each car battery—weighing upwards of 500 kilograms (1,100 pounds) in size for sport-utility vehicles—would emit up to 74% more C02 than producing an efficient conventional car if it's made in a factory powered by fossil fuels in a place like Germany, according to Berylls' findings.

See also: GM to Source Lithium for EV Batteries from US-Based Startup

Yet regulators haven't set out clear guidelines on acceptable carbon emissions over the life cycle of electric cars, even as the likes of China, France and the U.K. move toward outright bans of combustion engines.

"It will come down to where is the battery made, how is it made, and even where do we get our electric power from," said Henrik Fisker, chief executive officer and chairman of Fisker Inc., a California-based developer of electric vehicles.

For perspective, the average German car owner could drive a gas-guzzling vehicle for three and a half years, or more than 50,000 kilometers, before a Nissan Leaf with a 30 kWh battery would beat it on carbon-dioxide emissions in a coal-heavy country, Berylls estimates show.

And that's one of the smallest batteries on the market: BMW's i3 has a 42 kWh battery, Mercedes's upcoming EQC crossover will have a 80 kWh battery, and Audi's e-tron will come in at 95 kWh.

With such heavy batteries, an electric car's carbon footprint can grow quite large even beyond the showroom, depending on how it's charged. Driving in France, which relies heavily on nuclear power, will spit out a lot less CO2 than Germany, where 40% of the grid burns on coal.

"It's not a great change to move from diesel to German coal power," said NorthVolt AB CEO Peter Carlsson, a former Tesla manager who is trying to build a 4-billion-euro ($4.6 billion) battery plant in Sweden that would run on hydropower. "Electric cars will be better in every way, but of course, when batteries are made in a coal-based electricity system it will take longer" to surpass diesel engines, he said.

To be sure, other studies show that even in coal-dominant Poland, using an electric car would emit 25% less carbon dioxide than a diesel car, according to Transport & Environment Brussels, a body that lobbies the European Union for sustainable environmental policy.

The benefit of driving battery cars in cities will be immediate: their quiet motors will reduce noise pollution and curb toxins like nitrogen oxide, NOX, a chemical compound spewed from diesel engines that's hazardous to air quality and human health.

"In downtown Oslo, Stockholm, Beijing or Paris, the most immediate consideration is to improve air quality and the quality of life for the people who live there," said Christoph Stuermer, the global lead analyst for PricewaterhouseCoopers Autofacts.

But electric cars aren't as clean as they could be. Just switching to renewable energy for manufacturing would slash emissions by 65%, according to Transport & Environment. In Norway, where hydro-electric energy powers practically the entire grid, the Berylls study showed electric cars generate nearly 60% less CO2 over their lifetime, compared with even the most efficient fuel-powered vehicles.

As it is now, manufacturing an electric car pumps out "significantly" more climate-warming gases than a conventional car, which releases only 20% of its lifetime C02 at this stage, according to estimates of Mercedes-Benz's electric-drive system integration department.

"Life-cycle emissions in electric vehicles depend on how much the car is driven in order to get to a point of crossover on diesels," Ola Kallenius, the Daimler AG board member who will take over as CEO next year, said at the Paris Motor Show this month. "By 2030, the life cycle issue will improve."

Some manufacturers have heeded calls to produce batteries in a more sustainable way. Tesla uses solar power at its Gigafactory for batteries in Nevada, and has plans for similar plants in Europe and Shanghai. Chinese firm Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. is also looking to power its future German plant with renewables.

"The topic of CO2 lifetime evaluations is starting to get more traction," said Radics at Berylls. "Carmakers need to be transparent in this discussion to avoid unsettling buyers."

 

 
 
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Latest Comments

Posted by danHJun 22nd, 2021 10:44PM
Not interested in so-called peer-reviewed articles from Co2 Coalition:
"The CO2 Coalition is a nonprofit climate change denial advocacy organization in the United States founded in 2015.[1][2] The group's claims are disputed by the vast majority of climate scientists.[1] The organization has 55 members.[3] The organization been funded by energy industry firms and conservative activists who oppose climate change mitigation policies, such as the Mercer Family Foundation and Koch brothers.[4][1] It is viewed as the successor to the George C. Marshall Institute."
Posted by daveburtonMay 6th, 2021 10:12AM
The problem with this article is with its assumption that CO2 emissions are "dirty." They aren't. In fact, the peer-reviewed scientific evidence is compelling that CO2 emissions are net-beneficial, rather than harmful, and the social cost of carbon is negative.
https://co2coalition.org/2020/01/24/peer-reviewed-study-recent-data-on-plant-growth-shows-a-net-benefit-not-a-social-cost-of-carbon-dioxide-emissions/

Here are some relevant papers:

Dayaratna, K.D., McKitrick, R. & Michaels, P.J. Climate sensitivity, agricultural productivity and the social cost of carbon in FUND. Environ Econ Policy Stud 22, 433–448 (2020). doi:10.1007/s10018-020-00263-w

Uddin S, Löw M, Parvin S, Fitzgerald GJ, Tausz-Posch S, Armstrong R, O'Leary G, Tausz M. Elevated [CO2] mitigates the effect of surface drought by stimulating root growth to access sub-soil water. PLoS One. 2018 Jun 14;13(6):e0198928. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0198928

Fitzgerald GJ, et al. Elevated atmospheric [CO2] can dramatically increase wheat yields in semi-arid environments and buffer against heat waves. Glob Chang Biol. 2016 Jun;22(6):2269-84. Glob Chang Biol. 2016 Jun;22(6):2269-84. doi:10.1111/gcb.13263.

Donohue, RJ, Roderick, ML, McVicar, TR, and Farquhar, GD (2013), Impact of CO2 fertilization on maximum foliage cover across the globe's warm, arid environments, Geophys. Res. Lett., 40, 3031–3035, doi:10.1002/grl.50563.

O'Leary GJ, et al. Response of wheat growth, grain yield and water use to elevated CO2 under a Free-Air CO2 Enrichment (FACE) experiment and modelling in a semi-arid environment. Glob Chang Biol. 2015 Jul;21(7):2670-2686. doi:10.1111/gcb.12830.

Loehle, C., Idso, C., & Bently Wigley, T. (2016). Physiological and ecological factors influencing recent trends in United States forest health responses to climate change. Forest Ecology and Management, 363, 179–189. doi:10.1016/j.foreco.2015.12.042

Zhu, Z Piao, S, Myneni, RB, et al (2016). Greening of the Earth and its drivers. Nature Climate Change, 6(8), 791–795. doi:10.1038/nclimate3004

Those are all recent papers, but studies measuring the benefits of elevated CO2 go back more than a century; for example:
Gradenwitz A. Carbonic Acid Gas to Fertilize the Air. Scientific American, November 27, 1920. doi:10.1038/scientificamerican11271920-549
https://sealevel.info/1920sciamCO2/

Here's a NASA video about how CO2 emissions are greening the Earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOwHT8yS1XI

Learn more about climate change, here:
https://sealevel.info/learnmore.html
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