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Msg ID: 2730564 When does life begin? +5/-0     
Author:bladeslap
5/27/2022 1:37:05 PM

Is it at conception?

When a hearbeat starts?

When the fetus is viable outside the womb?

 



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Msg ID: 2730568 When does life begin? Life and personhood are two different things. (NT) +4/-0     
Author:TheCrow
5/27/2022 2:32:03 PM

Reply to: 2730564


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Msg ID: 2730570 I would be inclined to think that it is a person at the 'quickening' +4/-0     
Author:TheCrow
5/27/2022 3:00:17 PM

Reply to: 2730564

At the 'quickening' the fetus responds to it's own brain activity.

 

Quickening

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
In pregnancy terms, trong>quickening is the moment in pregnancy when the pregnant woman starts to feel the fetus' movement in the uterus.
 
Medical facts

The first natural sensation of quickening may feel like a light tapping, or the fluttering of a butterfly. These sensations eventually become stronger and more regular as the pregnancy progresses. Sometimes, the first movements are mis-attributed to gas or hunger pangs.

A woman's uterine muscles, rather than their abdominal muscles, are first to sense fetal motion. Therefore, her body weight usually does not have a substantial effect on when movements are initially perceived. Women who have already given birth have more relaxed uterine muscles which are more sensitive to fetal motion; for them fetal motion can sometimes be felt as early as 14 weeks.

Usually, quickening occurs naturally at about the middle of a pregnancy. A woman pregnant for the first time (i.e., a >primigravida woman) typically feels fetal movements at about 18–20 weeks, whereas a woman who has given birth at least once will typically feel movements around 15–17 weeks.

Legal history

The word quick originally meant "alive". Historically, quickening has sometimes been considered to be the beginning of the possession of "individual life" by the fetus. British legal scholar William Blackstone explained the subject of quickening in the eighteenth century, relative to feticide and abortion:

Life... begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb. For if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb; or if any one beat her, whereby the child dieth in her body, and she is delivered of a dead child; this, though not murder, was by the ancient law homicide or manslaughter. But at present it is not looked upon in quite so atrocious a light, though it remains a very heinous misdemeanor.

Nevertheless, quickening was only one of several standards that were used historically to determine when the right to life attaches to a fetus. According to the "ancient law" mentioned by Blackstone, another standard was formation of the fetus, which occurs weeks before quickening. Henry de Bracton explained the ancient law, about five hundred years before Blackstone:

If one strikes a pregnant woman or gives her poison in order to procure an abortion, if the fetus is already formed or quickened, especially if it is quickened, he commits homicide.

In England in the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries, a woman convicted of a capital crime could claim a delay in her execution if she were pregnant; a woman who did so was said to "plead the belly". The law held that no women could be granted a second reprieve from the original sentence on the ground of subsequent pregnancy, even if the fetus had quickened. In Ireland on 16 March 1831 Baron Pennefather in Limerick stated that pregnancy was not alone sufficient for a delay but there had to be quickening.



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Msg ID: 2730671 When does life begin?—Materialism. +3/-3     
Author:Shooting Shark
5/28/2022 11:58:26 AM

Reply to: 2730564

Well Buddha, 

I comes down to your definition of "life"

My dog is alive and I have the power of execution over him if I choose.

My cat was alive, until my dog ( Tavern) killed him

Or should  I say " murdered " him.. 

wait, Dogs don't murder anyone, they are dogs out  of instinct 

And do I dont judge my dog and sentence him to summary execution 

for the murder of my cat.

 

Only humans are culpable for committing murder,

which is the unjustified, unlawful taking of a HUMAN life.

Opps, now you need to define "human life"

and you still haven't defined "life"...

 

If you Libz wanna keep "legally" murdering human babies

YOU will need to define what human life is.. not the rest of us who believe

Human Life is different than Animal life -- or plant life-- or even us sea creatures!

You see, HumANS have a spirit made in the "Image of God"

But you Libz don't really believe that do you-- you're a bunch of crypto atheists 

you think human life can be distinguished from other sentient beings in the animal kingdom? 

on what basis? 

and you think this phenenomena you call "life" ( and consciousness for the matter) 

is an emergent property of blind naturalistic evolution? 

What do you mean "life"? "Human life?"

Where is morality to be found in "Nature" (red with tooth and claw!) 

is it just a product of human thinking,

the big brain, "intelligence" --

another " emergent property," perhaps? 

Your original question begs these questions, Buddha.

I don't expect you baby killing Libz to understand.


Besides,  why irrationally restrict your definition of material life to "fetuses." 

Oops, I guess you need to define what you mean there too..what's a fetus? 

Clearly the DNC doesn't make such distinctions --

(or else where would they get theor anchovies for Hillary's pizza?) 

You see, Materialis is an amoral excuse for defining "life" and justification for taking it.

BTW., Bill Gates thinks you're a "useless eater"

Not me.

I just think you're a

Useful Idiot! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Msg ID: 2730677 When does life begin?—Materialism. +5/-1     
Author:TheCrow
5/28/2022 12:29:15 PM

Reply to: 2730671

"and you think this phenenomena you call "life" ( and consciousness for the matter)  is an emergent property of blind naturalistic evolution?"

 

Occam's razor: "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" 

There is no necessity of a supernatural force in the origin of life or consciousness. If there is a lack of a rational natural explanation at this point, that only shows that our science is not perfect. Radio communication would have been miraculous not very long ago. Why must you assume that a supernatural force is responsible for unexplained and no other is acceptable?

Suppose, as I do, that God did create the universe and all it contains. How would it appear to have been done? By what seem to be natural processes. You might believe otherwise, but you will never be able to prove it. There are very few documented unexplained historic miracles.

Because miracles require faith and the enemy of faith is fact. Once it's fact, it is not faith.



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Msg ID: 2730731 When does life begin?—Materialism. +2/-3     
Author:Shooting Shark
5/28/2022 9:46:58 PM

Reply to: 2730677

ssszz



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Msg ID: 2730732 When does life begin?—Materialism. +2/-3     
Author:Shooting Shark
5/28/2022 9:48:42 PM

Reply to: 2730731

Which one of the above is human?

( hint: they all look like Libz!)

useful

idiots! 



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Msg ID: 2730965 Are you circumcised? That has human DNA. Was that a person? +4/-0     
Author:TheCrow
5/31/2022 3:22:10 PM

Reply to: 2730732

That's what you're on about- murder, homicide is the killing of a person. 

>If it's part of your body, it's yours to do with as you wish.

You do know that slavery is illegal? You don't own a woman's, anybody's body.

Human is not necessarily a person. Acephalic, for instance...



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Msg ID: 2730970 When does life begin?—Materialism. +4/-0     
Author:TheCrow
5/31/2022 3:40:33 PM

Reply to: 2730732

ssszz


"Which one of the above is human?"

 

 



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Msg ID: 2730983 When does life begin?—Materialism. +1/-0     
Author:TheCrow
5/31/2022 6:52:13 PM

Reply to: 2730732

You object to clear science as materialism, preferring voices in somebody's head....



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Msg ID: 2730985 He also believes in QAnon, that's what you're working with... (NT) +4/-0     
Author:Jett
5/31/2022 6:54:31 PM

Reply to: 2730983


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Msg ID: 2731054 He also believes in QAnon, that's what you're working with... +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
6/1/2022 10:51:00 AM

Reply to: 2730985

I am very well aware of the metamorphosis of 'conservatism' into white nationalism. Trump still pulls the levers that direct the campaigns:

 

My hope is that Trump's malign influence on the Republican Party will diminish, lose control of conservatism and the Republican Party without Trump creating a third party, which will ensure the election of Democrats for the next couple election cycles.

The vague, watered-down discussions of principles and points between the two parties keeps American democracy alive. A third party will end that as the extra party will make deals on principles, platforms that will twist the electorate into irrelevance. America already has one leg into that trap, political principles are minimized to the point that all the candidates are the plain vanilla unobjectionable Madison Avenue candidates.

Trump broke out of that smokey back room control of the process. Good for America! Unfortunately, Trump was a poor choice for the movement archetype and ideal- The Donald is only interested in what he gains in any transaction, law or principle.

So- America is right back where it was in 2015 and earlier- political establishments control the process and work around Trump, Trumpism's dead ends.



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