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Msg ID: 2769459 "If I'm arrested there will be death and destruction" +5/-0     
Author:bladeslap
3/27/2023 10:24:47 AM

And sure enouhg, Alvin Bragg received death threats, some unknown white powder, among other things.

Trump harmless?

Not at all. He needs to be put in jail. He's a thug and a low-life and if you support him and his behavior, I suggest you check your morality and do some soul-searching.



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Msg ID: 2769540 So, we learn that Donald Trump is not just a liar, a thief and a cheat:  +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
3/28/2023 12:30:23 PM

Reply to: 2769459

So, we learn that Donald Trump is not just a liar, a thief and a cheat: He's also a terrorist, threatening America and Americans with violence to achieve his political goals and unelexcted, un-Constitutional power.

I assume that the Trump followers who were surprised by this 'revelation' will acknowledge their mistake in supporting a wannabe autocrat, a dictator....



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Msg ID: 2769541 "If I'm arrested there will be death and destruction" +4/-0     
Author:TheCrow
3/28/2023 12:50:43 PM

Reply to: 2769459

A few months (years?) ago, Trumpists posting here posed the issue of political violence in this forum. Simultaneously condemning violent protests, especially Portland and BLM protests gone off the rails into mob action.

But, hey! That sort of violence is okey-dokey if it is intended to put The Donald in office in spite of his never having recieved a popular vote majority in an election. Wait! Isn't America nominally a democratic republic? Why, yes- in theory.

But our history of democratic government assumed that leaders were normal citizens, not near divine men like Trump... 

Trump has resorted to ‘incendiary rhetoric’ to deter investigations and to rile up his base, experts say, and shows no sign of letting up

 
 in Washington
Tue 28 Mar 2023 05.00 EDT
 

Donald Trump’s demagogic attacks on prosecutors investigating potential criminal charges against him are aimed at riling up his base and could spark violence – but show no signs of letting up as a potential indictment in at least one case looms, say legal experts.

 
Donald Trump Holds First Rally Of 2024 Presidential Campaign<br>WACO, TEXAS - MARCH 25: Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks during a rally at the Waco Regional Airport on March 25, 2023 in Waco, Texas. Former U.S. president Donald Trump attended and spoke at his first rally since announcing his 2024 presidential campaign. Today in Waco also marks the 30 year anniversary of the weeks deadly standoff involving Branch Davidians and federal law enforcement. 82 Davidians were killed, and four agents left dead. (Photo by Brandon Bell/Getty Images)
Trump builds national lead over DeSantis but faces closer race in early-voting states
Read more
 

At campaign rallies, speeches and on social media, Trump has lambasted state and federal prosecutors as “thugs” and claimed that two of them – who are Black – are “racist”, language designed to inflame racial tension.

He has also used antisemitic tropes by referring to a conspiracy of “globalists” and the influence of the billionaire financier George Soros, who is Jewish.

Trump’s drive to undercut four criminal inquiries he faces is reaching a fever pitch, as a Manhattan district attorney’s inquiry looks poised to bring charges against Trump over his key role in a $130,000 hush-money payment in 2016 to the adult film star Stormy Daniels, with whom he allegedly had an affair.

In his blitz to deter and obfuscate two of the criminal investigations, Trump has resorted to verbal assaults on two Black district attorneys in Manhattan and Georgia, calling them “racist”, even as he simultaneously battles to win the White House again.

In a broader attack on the four state and federal investigations, at a Texas rally on Saturday Trump condemned the “thugs and criminals who are corrupting our justice system”, while on his Truth Social platform last week he warned of “possible death and destruction” if he is charged in the hush-money inquiry.

But now Trump’s incendiary attacks against the federal and state inquiries are prompting warnings that he could be fueling violence, as he did on January 6, with bogus claims that the 2020 was stolen from him and a mob of his backers attacked the Capitol, leading to at least five deaths.

“Trump’s incendiary rhetoric, amplified through his social media postings and his high-decibel fear-mongering in Texas, pose clear physical dangers to prosecutors and investigators,” said the former acting chief of the fraud section at the justice department, Paul Pelletier. “With Trump’s actions in promoting the January 6 insurrection serving as a cautionary tale, the potential for violent reactions to any of his charges cannot be understated.”

Ex-prosecutors see Trump reverting to tactics he has often deployed in legal and political battles.

Trump’s invective, say experts, will not deter prosecutors as they separately weigh fraud, obstruction and other charges related to January 6 and other issues, but echo scare tactics he has used before – as in his two impeachments – and may help Trump’s chances of becoming the Republican nominee by angering the base that could influence primary outcomes.

“None of these accusations about the motives of prosecutors, however, will negate the evidence of Trump’s own crimes. A jury will focus on the facts and the law, and not any of this name-calling. The Trump strategy may work in the court of public opinion, but not in a court of law,” said Barbara McQuade, a former US attorney for the eastern district of Michigan.

That may explain why Trump has received more political cover from three conservative House committee chairs, who joined his effort to intimidate the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, by launching investigations to obtain his records and testimony, threats that Bragg and legal experts have denounced as political stunts and improper.

The legal stakes for Trump are enormous, and unprecedented for a former president, as the criminal inquiries have been gaining momentum, with more key witnesses who have past or present ties to Trump testifying before grand juries, and others getting subpoenas.

Two investigations led by special counsel Jack Smith are separately looking into possible charges against Trump for obstructing an official proceeding and defrauding the US government, as he schemed with top allies to block Joe Biden from taking office, and potential obstruction and other charges tied to Trump’s retention of classified documents after he left office.

Further, the Fulton county Georgia district attorney, Fani Willis, has said decisions are “imminent” about potentially charging Trump and others who tried to overturn Joe Biden’s win there in 2020 with erroneous claims of fraud.

Much of the investigation’s work has involved a special grand jury that reportedly has recommended several indictments, with a focus on Trump’s high-pressure call on 2 January 2021 to Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger, beseeching him to just “find” 11,780 votes to help block Joe Biden’s victory in the state.

Trump has denied all wrongdoing, and denounced the inquiries as “witch-hunts”.

Little wonder, though, that Trump’s squadron of lawyers has lately filed a batch of motions in Georgia and Washington, with mixed success, to slow prosecutors as they move forward in gathering evidence from key witnesses and mull charges against Trump.

“Blustering in court or in the media about the supposed bias or racism of the Fulton county and Manhattan county prosecutors will not convince a court to remove a democratically elected prosecutor, and certainly the Republicans in the House of Representatives have no legal authority ability to influence the course of criminal justice in New York state proceedings,” said Bruce Green, a Fordham law professor and ex-prosecutor in New York’s southern district.

Likewise, ex-US attorney in Georgia Michael Moore told the Guardian the Trump attacks on the two black prosecutors are “completely baseless. The charges of racism against the prosecutors is more of an indication of the weakness of his claims than most anything else he has said.”

Moore scoffed, too, at the moves by Trump’s House Republican allies.

He said: “It’s rich to me that the Republicans in the House claim to be the party of limited government, but as soon as they get in power and look like they might lose another election, they immediately use their big government power to meddle in a matter that purely belongs to the local jurisdiction.”

NYU law professor Stephen Gillers said he sees similar dynamics at play in Trump’s tactics.

“Trump cannot stop the judicial process, although he can try to slow it. But he can undermine its credibility through his charges and by mobilizing his supporters. I see what he’s doing now as aimed at them, just as he tried to discredit the election returns in their eyes and anger them with baseless charges over the ‘steal’'.”

The weakness of Trump’s legal moves was revealed in two court rulings in DC requiring testimony before grand juries from former top aides including ex-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows in the January 6 inquiry, and one of his current lawyers, Evan Corcoran, in the classified documents case.

The two rulings should give a good boost to the special counsel in his separate investigations of Trump’s efforts to overturn his 2020 loss on January 6 when Congress met to certify Joe Biden’s win, about which Meadows must now testify, and Trump’s retention of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago after he left the White House, about which Corcoran has to testify.

As the four investigations intensify, more aggressive moves by Trump and his lawyers to derail potential charges in Georgia, Manhattan and from the special counsel are expected before, as well as after, any charges may be filed.

“If I were on the prosecution teams in Manhattan or Georgia, I would expect Trump to assert every defense he can think of, including accusing the prosecutors of misconduct,” McQuade said.

A judge on Monday ordered Willis to respond by 1 May to the Trump team’s motion seeking to bar her from further investigating or charging Trump, and wants all testimony from 75 witnesses – including Meadows and Trump’s former personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani – before the special grand jury rejected.

The judge’s order was in response to a Trump legal motion that McQuade said “appears to be baseless”.

Former Watergate prosecutor Philip Lacovara told the Guardian that Trump’s lawyers are deploying different legal tactics in the investigations.

“The Georgia strategy is partly a strategy of delay,” in which the Trump team is “raising dozens and dozens of objections, many of which are specious, in the hope that one will be sufficient to work on appeal and to keep him out of jail,” Lacovara said.

In Manhattan, he added, they are trying “to create the impression that this is a highly visible political stunt to exclude Trump from running”.

That tactic could help in “trying to pollute the jury pool” since a hung jury would be good for Trump. “All he needs is one juror who believes this is all a concocted plot.”

Former DoJ officials and experts expect Trump and his lawyers will keep up a frenzied stream of hyperbolic attacks and legal actions.

“This is more of what we saw during the election,” said former deputy attorney general Donald Ayer, who served in the George HW Bush administration. “He throws up gibberish and obstruction.”

 



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Msg ID: 2769544 If somebody brandishes a weapon and speaks of violence, one can reasonably +3/-0     
Author:TheCrow
3/28/2023 1:16:18 PM

Reply to: 2769459
If somebody brandishes a weapon and speaks of violence, one can reasonably expect a forceful, even violent response to stop the threat being carried out. That's exactly where America is right now with an amoral sociopathic former president seeking a return to power by any means.
 
Trump is also a vindictive narcissistic personality with paranoid tendencies, absolutely the last personality America, or any democratic republic should have in power... especially with aggresive imperialistic leaders of nuclear-capable, ambitious nations- the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation.
 
Trump was seen as the answer to the 2015 political establishments' power. BUT! it isn't 2015 anymore; and Trump represents, no- Trump is a political establishment bent of increasing its' power and reach.
 
A man who sees violence as a justifiable method of domestic politics will certainly be inclined to violence in international politics...
 
 
 

Trump and the Violence Next Time

How seriously should we take the ex-president’s dark warnings about the consequences of indicting him?
 
MARCH 27, 2023 
Trump and the Violence Next Time
(Photo by Joe Raedle/Getty Images)

In anticipation of charges against him—expected from the investigation arising from his hush money payments to adult actress Stormy Daniels, or one of several other ongoing investigations—former President Donald Trump has denounced law enforcement, called for protests, and issued darkly foreboding warnings. The echoes of January 6th are unmistakable. As Tom Nichols notes in the Atlantic, Trump’s rhetoric appears aimed at inciting anger and drastic action. Violent threats online have reportedly spiked.

On March 23, Trump posted an all-caps message on his social media platform saying that Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney who may bring charges, is “JUST CARRYING OUT THE PLANS OF THE RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS. OUR COUNTRY IS BEING DESTROYED, AS THEY TELL US TO BE PEACEFUL!” As “they”—the radical left—“tell us to be peaceful.” It’s giving permission for violence, if not calling for it outright.

Later the same day he added a picture of himself holding a baseball bat looking like Al Capone in The Untouchables next to a picture of Bragg. In case anyone didn’t get it, Trump added another post the next day warning of “potential death & destruction.”

Trump and his more radical supporters are unsubtly attempting to extort state and federal prosecutors into putting him above the law. That leads to fears of political violence—after all, they’ve done it before—and to questions whether prosecuting an ex-president and current presidential candidate for the first time in American history is worth it.

On principle, it’s absurd to tell law enforcement to let crimes slide because the alleged criminal has fans who might get violent. Rather, if anyone decides to commit a crime—especially a violent attack on police, the FBI, courts, or other parts of the law enforcement system—then they ought to be arrested and prosecuted.

But prosecuting a former president is more than just a legal question. How worried should we be about violence? At the extreme end, could a prosecution spark a civil war, or some terrible string of events America could avoid by letting Trump off the hook?

We should take seriously the potential for violence, but we should also take care not to overstate it. In particular, we’re unlikely to see a repeat of January 6th, with a violent mob storming government buildings. Here’s why:

Private Citizen, Not President

On January 6th, Trump was in the White House. Keeping a president in power has more appeal to more people than keeping a private citizen out of jail. He’s less present in the news (relatively), and lacks the trappings and powers of state. His promises of pardons are now if he can, not only if he will.

As much as MAGA members of Congress, parts of conservative media, and the online right will cry that charging Trump is a grand injustice—and somehow means that a nebulous “they” are “coming for” average citizens—the stakes are lower, with less impact on regular Americans. Out of office, Trump has less ability to draw people out and to shape the security environment in which protests take place.

No Specific Date

The post-election calendar is set well in advance. Congress formally reading the Electoral College votes on January 6 every four years is the last bit of constitutional mechanism before a presidential inauguration. As other prongs of Trump’s coup attempt failed, such as trying to get swing states Joe Biden won to send fake Electors for Trump instead, the congressional vote took on extra importance.

Trump hyped it for weeks, starting with his notorious December 19, 2020 tweet: “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” With a date in place, overlapping MAGA and QAnon circles had something to organize around, and get excited about. “Stop the Steal,” a private group created after the 2020 election in response to Trump’s lies, helped plan the rally, and they had the sitting president as a draw. Interested people had the details they needed to make travel plans.

One of the clearest signs: Some people came to the National Mall that day wearing merch with the date on it.

There’s no equivalent discrete moment regarding Trump’s criminal cases, no date to organize around. We’ll likely see announcements of the charges, reports of developments, and court appearances, but no single big event scheduled in advance. Individuals might respond to various moments with violence, but it will probably be sporadic, like last August when a man attacked an FBI building in Cincinnati three days after federal agents executed the search warrant at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home/resort.

It’s not impossible that disruptive protests could arise, like last year’s American version of the Canadian “trucker convoy.” But if there are protests, they will probably be small and nonviolent. We’re unlikely to see a big, unruly crowd, one that can turn into a riot, and provide cover for planned action by militias as the Capitol attack did for the Oath Keepers.

It’s still early, but the record so far seems to bear this out. On Saturday March 18, Trump (falsely) claimed he’d be arrested Tuesday March 21 and called for protests. So few people attended that they were outnumbered by both counterprotesters and media. Short notice and lower stakes means fewer people come out.

The January 6th Prosecutions

One reason rallies are so sparse is the law enforcement response to the Capitol attack. Hundreds of participants have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to federal crimes, including forced entry, destruction and theft of property, and assaulting police officers. Multiple Oath Keepers have pleaded or been found guilty of seditious conspiracy and sentenced to years in prison. They won’t be able to conduct violence on Trump’s behalf now, even if they wanted to.

The arrests and convictions are showing signs of a deterrent effect. When asked to help protest Trump’s impending arrest, Ali Alexander—who founded “Stop the Steal,” helped organize the pre-riot rally, and testified before a grand jury about January 6th—said he’s “retired.”

On far-right social media, warnings spread that protests were a trap by federal agents. For a community with a conspiracy-theory mindset, where fear of persecution by the “deep state” already runs rampant, friendly voices saying pro-Trump protests are an FBI setup is no small thing. This was apparent when post-January 6th protests at state capitols didn’t materialize. It’s likely more prevalent now that they can’t tell themselves Trump is secretly battling the deep state from the Oval Office.

Readiness

America is pretty good at not allowing the same attack twice. To make grim comparisons: After both Pearl Harbor and 9/11, the United States worked to make sure those styles of attack would not succeed in the future.

So it is with January 6th. American law enforcement is taking threats of far-right violence more seriously than a few years ago. The FBI and Department of Homeland Security issue public warnings about QAnon as a potential source of extremist violence. Police in New York and Washington, D.C. increased their presence this week in response to the possibility that Trump would be charged, erecting barricades around courthouses, the U.S. Capitol, and Trump Tower.

If anyone wishes to come out and peaceably express their displeasure over Trump facing charges, that is their right, and it’s important police respect it. But after January 6th, security forces are more prepared for the possibility of violence associated with this cause, and more likely to see it as anti-American and anti-cop.

Electoral Violence

A lot of the people online and in the media who threaten political violence—whether by themselves or others—or fantasize about a second Civil War are all talk. As deep into lies as the MAGA movement has gotten, as much as conservative media will try to rile up viewers, the number who would contemplate domestic terrorism, let alone act on it, isn’t large. Some who might have are behind bars, and others are more aware of the consequences. The possibility of individual or small group attacks is significant enough that law enforcement should treat it as a serious threat, but it is not a reason to refrain from properly administering criminal justice.

However, while the threat of political violence may not be especially large in the near term, the legal process will go on past the first Republican primaries—and, given the number of investigations and their complicated nature, likely beyond the 2024 election. Manhattan D.A. Bragg has received death threats, and he hasn’t even filed charges yet. Prosecutors, judges, and juries in Trump cases will need extra protection.


Two final thoughts. First, again, the possibility of violence from lone actors, including deranged individuals, cannot be discounted. Individuals are inherently harder than groups to identify and stop in advance. Trump’s calls for protests and warnings of death and destruction may be heard by some individuals as a call to action. If 99.9 percent of Trump supporters would never commit political violence, that still leaves thousands who might.

Second, it must be emphasized that the unprecedented, country-threatening actions here are those of Donald Trump, not of the Americans who say the law applies to him. As Clausewitz wrote about war, “The aggressor is always peace-loving . . . he would prefer to take over our country unopposed.” To the extent there’s a violent threat from a subset of Trump supporters, it derives from his quest for power and attacks on constitutional order, not from the legal response.

Of course, Republicans could nominate someone in 2024 who isn’t in legal jeopardy and didn’t call for the “termination” of the Constitution. But Trump sees winning the Republican nomination and then the White House as not only ends in themselves but as his way out of legal trouble. His lawyers can stretch out the process, and supporters can argue that prosecutors are wrongly interfering in electoral politics. If Trump becomes president again, he can carry out plans to purge the government of non-loyalists, install another attorney general who acts more like Trump’s lawyer than America’s top law enforcement official, and put himself effectively above the law.

It’s important to remember that the biggest outburst of Trumpist violence arose from him losing re-election and lying about it. That suggests that the 2024 election and its aftermath present the highest risks. If there’s violence, it will likely be because national power is on the line, and Trump’s followers are riled up by lies, grievances, and conspiracy theories, not because Trump faces legal accountability for his lawbreaking.



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